Comments on: Negotiables http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/ We don't need no stinking subtitle Wed, 08 Jun 2011 05:44:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Mike Haubrich http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-407 Mike Haubrich Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:04:56 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-407 If you don't mind us asking, what sort of conclusion did you come to? If you don’t mind us asking, what sort of conclusion did you come to?

]]> By: Nerdcore Steve http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-403 Nerdcore Steve Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:02:38 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-403 I don't believe that it would have occurred to me to comment on a science blogger's looks, but I must admit that it didn't occur to me that a comment like "mmmmmmmm……….. wo-man" was anything other than silly and harmless. This incident prompted a long discussion between myself and my girlfriend, and some introspection on my part. I don’t believe that it would have occurred to me to comment on a science blogger’s looks, but I must admit that it didn’t occur to me that a comment like “mmmmmmmm……….. wo-man” was anything other than silly and harmless. This incident prompted a long discussion between myself and my girlfriend, and some introspection on my part.

]]> By: Greg Laden http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-347 Greg Laden Sat, 04 Apr 2009 15:36:32 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-347 Right. It is very complicated. I've been trying to think of a way to actually bring some data to the table in this discussion, but that woudl be quite difficult. Right. It is very complicated. I’ve been trying to think of a way to actually bring some data to the table in this discussion, but that woudl be quite difficult.

]]> By: Stephanie Zvan http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-345 Stephanie Zvan Sat, 04 Apr 2009 14:37:59 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-345 The joke being only that there are <em>no</em> counterexamples. Because while identity has an effect, some people have much more internalized identities than others, which means that anonymity has less of an effect for those people. Of course, I have no data on how that would interact with who chooses to be anonymous. The joke being only that there are no counterexamples. Because while identity has an effect, some people have much more internalized identities than others, which means that anonymity has less of an effect for those people. Of course, I have no data on how that would interact with who chooses to be anonymous.

]]> By: Greg Laden http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-342 Greg Laden Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:47:02 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-342 The pseudonymous people will think I am not joking and the non-pseudo's will think that I am. Both will be wrong. Because guess what: IT'S NEGOTIATED!!!!!! What I find astonishing is that many anonymous Internet denizens not only insist that there is no relationship between being an asshole and being anonymous (in the absence of the necessary evidence to say anything) but they also become dumb about the reasonable assertion that being anonymous changes the formula for how the negotiation would develop. For that, there is abundant evidence from studies in psychology and economics: Identity is linked to consequences and consequence is linked to the decision making process of how to act and what to do. The pseudonymous people will think I am not joking and the non-pseudo’s will think that I am. Both will be wrong.

Because guess what: IT’S NEGOTIATED!!!!!!

What I find astonishing is that many anonymous Internet denizens not only insist that there is no relationship between being an asshole and being anonymous (in the absence of the necessary evidence to say anything) but they also become dumb about the reasonable assertion that being anonymous changes the formula for how the negotiation would develop. For that, there is abundant evidence from studies in psychology and economics: Identity is linked to consequences and consequence is linked to the decision making process of how to act and what to do.

]]> By: Stephanie Zvan http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-334 Stephanie Zvan Sat, 04 Apr 2009 03:20:32 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-334 Becca, as I mentioned in an email to Greg after we realized we were both thinking about the same topic, I'm rather impressed with the number of forces operating against this kind of social maturity. From traditional gender role messages about communication to our society's fascination with the successful bully to the strange notions we have about how romantic love is "supposed" to work, it's impressive anyone gets this at all. Then there are all the people who just like the security of rules, or as AA said, forget that they can manage this. Jadehawk, you totally caught me out. That's why I write posts like this, so I can say, "Oh, I'm not going to have this argument again. Just go read this." Greg, any bets as to how many people don't get that you're joking, despite the fact that you're responding to someone who's essentially anonymous? Becca, as I mentioned in an email to Greg after we realized we were both thinking about the same topic, I’m rather impressed with the number of forces operating against this kind of social maturity. From traditional gender role messages about communication to our society’s fascination with the successful bully to the strange notions we have about how romantic love is “supposed” to work, it’s impressive anyone gets this at all. Then there are all the people who just like the security of rules, or as AA said, forget that they can manage this.

Jadehawk, you totally caught me out. That’s why I write posts like this, so I can say, “Oh, I’m not going to have this argument again. Just go read this.”

Greg, any bets as to how many people don’t get that you’re joking, despite the fact that you’re responding to someone who’s essentially anonymous?

]]> By: Jadehawk http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-332 Jadehawk Sat, 04 Apr 2009 02:58:19 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-332 that was an excellent post! it's certainly a lot more insightful than the "men will be men" vs. "don't EVER say that!!" screamfests that resulted from this :-p I shall bookmark this and link to it everytime this argument starts again. and it will. it always does. that was an excellent post! it’s certainly a lot more insightful than the “men will be men” vs. “don’t EVER say that!!” screamfests that resulted from this :-p

I shall bookmark this and link to it everytime this argument starts again. and it will. it always does.

]]> By: Greg Laden http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-331 Greg Laden Sat, 04 Apr 2009 01:44:11 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-331 ELR .... but there are so many counter examples! like for instance ... Ah, no not that one, he's actually not anonymous... Oh, what about .... oh, no, she came out last year and right away got a bit nicer. Oh, I know, how about ... oh, no, that one's a total asshole. .... Never mind. ELR …. but there are so many counter examples! like for instance … Ah, no not that one, he’s actually not anonymous… Oh, what about …. oh, no, she came out last year and right away got a bit nicer. Oh, I know, how about … oh, no, that one’s a total asshole.

….

Never mind.

]]> By: ELR http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-325 ELR Fri, 03 Apr 2009 20:02:44 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-325 I realize the following is a joke, but I also think the general observation is correct to a more or lesser extent depending on the person. Why does anonymity mean a certain portion of people feel there is no longer a need for negotiations? ie) they'd never say such things in person. Link includes some vulgarity that is probably NSFW for most. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/ I realize the following is a joke, but I also think the general observation is correct to a more or lesser extent depending on the person. Why does anonymity mean a certain portion of people feel there is no longer a need for negotiations? ie) they’d never say such things in person.

Link includes some vulgarity that is probably NSFW for most.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

]]> By: khan http://quichemoraine.com/2009/04/negotiables/#comment-324 khan Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:34:20 +0000 http://quichemoraine.com/?p=600#comment-324 Very well said. Even within established relationships (married 20 years) terms may have to be renegotiated. ---Some people are not very good at picking up on subtle communication. We’re all good at seeing what we want to see, as well as seeing what we fear. Know what level of clarity you need not to make mistakes. If you have to keep asking, “May I?” out loud, that’s okay.--- I am one of those people. Life became easier when I convinced myself there's nothing wrong with putting stuff into words. Of course, there are those who get upset with overt negotiation; but they probably aren't worth the trouble. Very well said.

Even within established relationships (married 20 years) terms may have to be renegotiated.

—Some people are not very good at picking up on subtle communication. We’re all good at seeing what we want to see, as well as seeing what we fear. Know what level of clarity you need not to make mistakes. If you have to keep asking, “May I?” out loud, that’s okay.—

I am one of those people. Life became easier when I convinced myself there’s nothing wrong with putting stuff into words. Of course, there are those who get upset with overt negotiation; but they probably aren’t worth the trouble.

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