People on this thread who are ascribing mature judgment, existential perspective, and autonomy of choice to a 13 year old boy suckered by a con artist–are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?

Children vary, sure, on some distribution of maturity, and there are cases in which 13 year olds are wise beyond their years. But that is not a good basis for law. I would much rather the law be hamhanded in these cases, erring on the side of mandating reasonable treatment on child patients, than introducing any margin for the judgment for a 13 year old, even a 17 year old.

If the cult he’s a part of instructed its 13 year old boys to ritually cut off their genitalia because it is “the way of Coyote”, would you allow the boy to make this same decision? If you were there with two burly policemen, and you were in charge, and the boy had the ritual knife, would you instruct the two big cops to stand down and let him do it? Because it is his right?

If you couldn’t stand by and watch that happen, ask yourself: why should he have the right to decide to die for similar beliefs, at his age?

How can people get involved with this case to help make sure the right thing happens here?

Capable of rational thought? Being capable of rational thought and actually excercising that ability are two different things. At 13 years old, after spending your entire life learning from your parents and your local community, you’ve only just begun to consider your independence, question what you’ve been taught and search for your own answers. At 13 years old, you’re only standing at the doorway of rational thought.

In any case, there is nothing rational about disregarding what we now know about the human body and disease in order to cling to an ancient means of understanding these things. Shame on the parents and his community.

As for slippery slope arguments, I generally find they come in two flavors: those from people who don’t want to argue directly with what I’m saying (strawman arguments) and those from people who aren’t capable of assessing a situation on its own merits. Now, if you really feel that decisions made by adults with terminal conditions have a bearing on those made by a child with a cancer that has a 95% cure rate, why don’t you ask me what I think of those decisions instead of assuming you know?

And of course, the value of a life depends not on *your* standards, but the standards of the person to whom the life belongs. People are always too quick to ascribe to others, feelings and attitudes similar to their own. In fact, I for one don’t find that my life is “sacred” or to be saved at any cost. When I am too ill to be able to enjoy my life any more, I would expect to be able to end it without having a thousand moral crusaders making my remaining time miserable by fighting me all the way. At some point I will find the value of continuing my life to be less than the value of removal of my pain and misery.

Slippery slope you’re on Stephanie…

this faux-native group needs to exposed and stopped ASAP. it was invented by someone going by “cloudpiler” SPECIFICALLY to dodge legal persecution of the fact that it is/was a company selling “native herbs” in a MLM scheme which advises against all “western medicine.”

-all the “nemenhah” “cloudpiler” “native health” “native american nutritionals” and “mentinah” (the mormon source text) sites are down right now (imagine that!)
what follows is from http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=83663

“Cloudpiler, a grandson of Chief Joseph, the great Nez Perce Chief and others who are part of Native American Nutritionals became recognized Native American Practitioners by seeking adoption into the Nemenhah Band and Native American Traditional Organization.
As Shahaptian Guides, they gained a valuable connection with the Holistic Principle of Native American Healing… as well as a legal safety net where natural healing is concerned.
You can read more about this on their webpage… the long and short of it goes like this:
By becoming Native American Practitioners, they (or YOU or anyone who gets adopted) qualify under the protections and exemptions provided by the Federal Native American Free Exercise of Religion Act of 1993 (NAFERA).
This Act of Congress was passed almost unanimously by both houses of legislature in Washington, D.C. The Act protects the Spiritual Path of Native Americans and their Traditional Spiritual Leaders.
NAFERA dictates that “no laws or statutes may be enacted that tend to regulate the establishment of Native American Religions or the free exercise thereof.”
This makes exclusive licensure laws that have either been passed by, or are presently on the dockets of every state legislature in the country to fall under the NAFERA exemption. It also applies to CAFTA and other trade regulatory statutes!!
The bottom line is this: Native American Practitioners are exempt by definition from such regulatory statutes.”

someone very evil has insulted real natives by using this legal loop-hole to make money, and has created a “native religion” out of a “lost” mormon “tribe” just to sell supplements, and now this kid is going to DIE!

the “nemenhah” are faux-natives, you “become” one by giving them $90 and then a continual $5/month religious “due.” and all their “herb cures” are sold by “cloudpiler’s” own “native american nutritionals.” you can read what some real natives think of them here:

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/archive/28147394.html

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1177.0

at that second link i just provided, you’ll find gems like:

“Cloudpiler is a pseudonym for a Philip Landis, sentenced to 2 10-year prison terms in Montana for fraud. He has also been featured as a shaman, providing peyote to his “followers”…or he was until the Utah Supreme Court stepped in.
He latest “project” is the Mentinah archives. After doing some independent research, my results are thus: he is bogus.”

they’ve got rundowns on what domains he owns and other dirt. plus the real history of how he “discovered” the existence of the “nemenhah” in some mormon texts he found and “translated” himself. wow, these actual native people (and a few LDS church members too) seem to hate this guy and his “nemenhah” nonsense.

Someone needs to bring this information to the attention of the child at risk, and perhaps to the judge in Minnesota as well.

do you think daniel hauser would be so willing to die for his beliefs if he knew that those beliefs were carefully crafted by a known fraudster who wanted to use new-age-generic “native wisdom” as a cover story to sell “holistic medicine” supplements without the risk of being sued for fraud again?

the knowledge that this kid is willing to die for a belief in a religion invented by a con-man with a MLM supplement company to push is much MUCH more disturbing to me than anything else in this story. i guarantee daniel and his parents don’t know this truth.

there is more discussion of landis and his nemenhah nonsense in the comments over here:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/05/death_by_religious_ignorance.php#comments

There are plenty of decisions he should be making. “We have a little flexibility in your treatment schedule. Do you want to push ahead and get through the next round, or do you need some more time to rest?” “What kind of food should we have around so you’re more tempted to eat?” “Do you want to go to the prayer ceremony after your treatment, or will you want some peace and quiet?”

Again, though, the difference between decision-making in childhood and adulthood isn’t so much a question of enlightenment as it is of capacity, and there’s certainly no guarantee that any single adult will make the best decision either. That’s why this is in court.