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	<title>Comments on: Atheism, Agnosticism and Teenage Rebellion</title>
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	<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/</link>
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		<title>By: khan</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13342</link>
		<dc:creator>khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 23:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13342</guid>
		<description>---There were accusations of treason and anti-familyism leveled against liberals, because we had this odd notion that women and gays should have the same rights of self-determination as straight men.---

I declare myself atheist, feminist &amp; liberal. Also &quot;anti-family&quot; as to some definitions of family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8212;There were accusations of treason and anti-familyism leveled against liberals, because we had this odd notion that women and gays should have the same rights of self-determination as straight men.&#8212;</p>
<p>I declare myself atheist, feminist &amp; liberal. Also &#8220;anti-family&#8221; as to some definitions of family.</p>
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		<title>By: DuWayne</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13194</link>
		<dc:creator>DuWayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 21:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13194</guid>
		<description>Strider -

For my own part, I accept that there is at least a tiny possibility that most anything might be true - it just happens to be a spectrum.  In all honesty, I put the existence of fairies around the same likelihood that a theistic god exists and only fractionally more likely than the notion that I will suddenly start defecating gold.  On the other hand, I put the likelihood of some form of physical/spiritual duality somewhere rather more likely than the existence of a theist god and closer to the likelihood that a blind watchmaker type god exists or existed.  At the same time, I think the possibility that extra terrestrials will someday visit earth rather more likely than any of these, because there is a rather profound likelihood that such beings actually exist - somewhere.

I do not think it the least bit irrational to express it in much the way that I just did.  Indeed I do so fairly regularly.  Living in the midwest, I get a lot of incredulous responses when I happen to mention that I am an atheist - the most common being; &quot;How do you know there&#039;s no god?&quot; I think it is extremely valuable to explain to people who ask me that, what exactly being an atheist means and using more examples than the existence of a theistic god or any other, makes it much clearer to people.  In a sense it provides a much more accurate understanding of exactly where I am coming from.  I am a rationalist atheist - I accept few things as absolute truth and accept few notions that lack a great deal of evidence to support them at all.  So not only do I throw out examples from one end of the spectrum, I throw some out from the other end as well.

How far I actually go, of course, is directly correlate to how rapidly the eyes of the person I am talking to glaze over.  I usually get much the same reaction to this discussion, that I do to discussing the history of the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strider -</p>
<p>For my own part, I accept that there is at least a tiny possibility that most anything might be true &#8211; it just happens to be a spectrum.  In all honesty, I put the existence of fairies around the same likelihood that a theistic god exists and only fractionally more likely than the notion that I will suddenly start defecating gold.  On the other hand, I put the likelihood of some form of physical/spiritual duality somewhere rather more likely than the existence of a theist god and closer to the likelihood that a blind watchmaker type god exists or existed.  At the same time, I think the possibility that extra terrestrials will someday visit earth rather more likely than any of these, because there is a rather profound likelihood that such beings actually exist &#8211; somewhere.</p>
<p>I do not think it the least bit irrational to express it in much the way that I just did.  Indeed I do so fairly regularly.  Living in the midwest, I get a lot of incredulous responses when I happen to mention that I am an atheist &#8211; the most common being; &#8220;How do you know there&#8217;s no god?&#8221; I think it is extremely valuable to explain to people who ask me that, what exactly being an atheist means and using more examples than the existence of a theistic god or any other, makes it much clearer to people.  In a sense it provides a much more accurate understanding of exactly where I am coming from.  I am a rationalist atheist &#8211; I accept few things as absolute truth and accept few notions that lack a great deal of evidence to support them at all.  So not only do I throw out examples from one end of the spectrum, I throw some out from the other end as well.</p>
<p>How far I actually go, of course, is directly correlate to how rapidly the eyes of the person I am talking to glaze over.  I usually get much the same reaction to this discussion, that I do to discussing the history of the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Strider</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13191</link>
		<dc:creator>Strider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13191</guid>
		<description>I understand the point, nice dueling quotes, but could you not also say that there is a tiny probability that fairies, another bit of the supernatural entirely made up and without any good evidence, exist?  Where do you draw the line?  Where does the silliness and wishful thinking end?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the point, nice dueling quotes, but could you not also say that there is a tiny probability that fairies, another bit of the supernatural entirely made up and without any good evidence, exist?  Where do you draw the line?  Where does the silliness and wishful thinking end?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Haubrich</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13164</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Haubrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13164</guid>
		<description>One of the faults that I have with writing is that I don&#039;t to a lot of research.  Correction noted, and thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the faults that I have with writing is that I don&#8217;t to a lot of research.  Correction noted, and thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: J.C. Samuelson</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13159</link>
		<dc:creator>J.C. Samuelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13159</guid>
		<description>Good article, though I do want to correct an error, if you don&#039;t mind. You wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Bright.  A serious misstep and misguided label coined and conceived by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett.  Essentially rationalists who just want to emphasize that they are smarter than everyone else.  It’s one label I refuse to apply to myself.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Although they did promote it by writing favorable articles, the Brights were NOT the brainchild of either Dennett or Dawkins, and (according to the people who DID coin the word in this context - Mynga Futrell and Paul Geisert (2003)) has nothing to do with intelligence. To be fair, the original usage is so ingrained, so embedded in modern English, that thinking of it in a different context provokes a bit of cognitive dissonance. However, if you&#039;re curious, you can always go read about the Brights (and why they choose that word) at &lt;a href=&quot;http://the-brights.net/vision/word.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;their website&lt;/a&gt;. 

I do think it was a misstep precisely because of the connotations you mention. I just think it&#039;s only fair to judge an idea by its content, rather than superficial appearance. 

Atheist works for me, though I rather like at least the idea of using the word &quot;Bright.&quot; I don&#039;t define myself as much by what I &lt;i&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; do or believe, but what I do, so words that have a positive, progressive feel to them are much preferred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article, though I do want to correct an error, if you don&#8217;t mind. You wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Bright.  A serious misstep and misguided label coined and conceived by Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett.  Essentially rationalists who just want to emphasize that they are smarter than everyone else.  It’s one label I refuse to apply to myself.</p></blockquote>
<p>Although they did promote it by writing favorable articles, the Brights were NOT the brainchild of either Dennett or Dawkins, and (according to the people who DID coin the word in this context &#8211; Mynga Futrell and Paul Geisert (2003)) has nothing to do with intelligence. To be fair, the original usage is so ingrained, so embedded in modern English, that thinking of it in a different context provokes a bit of cognitive dissonance. However, if you&#8217;re curious, you can always go read about the Brights (and why they choose that word) at <a href="http://the-brights.net/vision/word.html" rel="nofollow">their website</a>. </p>
<p>I do think it was a misstep precisely because of the connotations you mention. I just think it&#8217;s only fair to judge an idea by its content, rather than superficial appearance. </p>
<p>Atheist works for me, though I rather like at least the idea of using the word &#8220;Bright.&#8221; I don&#8217;t define myself as much by what I <i>don&#8217;t</i> do or believe, but what I do, so words that have a positive, progressive feel to them are much preferred.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Haubrich, FCD</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13150</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Haubrich, FCD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13150</guid>
		<description>Pascal&#039;s Wager is the backstop for agnosticism, isn&#039;t it Jason?  Strider, I know what you are saying, and I have used that quote myself.  The one thing that I can say is that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  There is no empirical test for the existence of God, of course and as an atheist I strongly believe that there is not, but the probability that there may be, however tiny is still there.

That&#039;s how science works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pascal&#8217;s Wager is the backstop for agnosticism, isn&#8217;t it Jason?  Strider, I know what you are saying, and I have used that quote myself.  The one thing that I can say is that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  There is no empirical test for the existence of God, of course and as an atheist I strongly believe that there is not, but the probability that there may be, however tiny is still there.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s how science works.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Thibeault</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13148</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Thibeault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13148</guid>
		<description>I should note -- the exception I made for the deist and pantheist &quot;God&quot; is not evidenced at all, but because it makes absolutely no empirically testable claims (unlike the dogmatic religions that depend on divine revelation), there&#039;s no &quot;balance of probability&quot; to speak of.  As in, the question is so open and ill-defined that it&#039;s impossible to make any estimation of probability, and without any evidence, can be equally dismissed without evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should note &#8212; the exception I made for the deist and pantheist &#8220;God&#8221; is not evidenced at all, but because it makes absolutely no empirically testable claims (unlike the dogmatic religions that depend on divine revelation), there&#8217;s no &#8220;balance of probability&#8221; to speak of.  As in, the question is so open and ill-defined that it&#8217;s impossible to make any estimation of probability, and without any evidence, can be equally dismissed without evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Thibeault</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13147</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Thibeault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13147</guid>
		<description>I did a post a while back wherein I argued that gnosticism is a different axis from theism.  But assuming as argued in Mike&#039;s previous post&#039;s comments that people that are unsure are actually near the centre of a single-axis level of theism/atheism, I still don&#039;t see that as a correct use of the terms.  An agnostic (in the sense of someone that doesn&#039;t actively worship) is as good as an atheist, insofar as believing in a god that judges you based on you worshipping would lead to them being equally consigned to hell should said god exist.

So if you&#039;re &quot;on the fence&quot; in an effort to hedge your bets, then you&#039;re doomed to eternity in hell OR a lifetime of doubt.  Either way doesn&#039;t sound pleasant to me.  I&#039;d rather be an agnostic atheist in the sense that the balance of probability is vastly against any deities that have ever been proposed by humankind thus far, short of the deist or pantheist &quot;God&quot;.  That way I don&#039;t live a life of doubt and regret and should the Abrahamic God (or, say, Horus, or Odin) exist, at least I&#039;ve been consistent in my demand for proof of him so when I get sent to Niflheim at least then I know I had it coming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did a post a while back wherein I argued that gnosticism is a different axis from theism.  But assuming as argued in Mike&#8217;s previous post&#8217;s comments that people that are unsure are actually near the centre of a single-axis level of theism/atheism, I still don&#8217;t see that as a correct use of the terms.  An agnostic (in the sense of someone that doesn&#8217;t actively worship) is as good as an atheist, insofar as believing in a god that judges you based on you worshipping would lead to them being equally consigned to hell should said god exist.</p>
<p>So if you&#8217;re &#8220;on the fence&#8221; in an effort to hedge your bets, then you&#8217;re doomed to eternity in hell OR a lifetime of doubt.  Either way doesn&#8217;t sound pleasant to me.  I&#8217;d rather be an agnostic atheist in the sense that the balance of probability is vastly against any deities that have ever been proposed by humankind thus far, short of the deist or pantheist &#8220;God&#8221;.  That way I don&#8217;t live a life of doubt and regret and should the Abrahamic God (or, say, Horus, or Odin) exist, at least I&#8217;ve been consistent in my demand for proof of him so when I get sent to Niflheim at least then I know I had it coming.</p>
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		<title>By: Strider</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13145</link>
		<dc:creator>Strider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13145</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think that those atheists who claim to know that there is no such thing as a supernatural realm are overstating their case by tiny degrees.&quot;.  Fine.  I&#039;m going to overstate my case:  all religions and/or supernatural realms were invented by pattern-seeking primates. No evidence exists for said religions and/or supernatural realms.  When scientifically investigated, either directly (e.g., efficacy of prayer research) or indirectly (e.g. paleontological research), said religious dogma and/or supernatural realms have always (to my knowledge) been disproven or retreated.  Said religions and/or supernatural realsm explain nothing about the natural world, the only one we DO know exists.  Sire, I have no need of that hypothesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think that those atheists who claim to know that there is no such thing as a supernatural realm are overstating their case by tiny degrees.&#8221;.  Fine.  I&#8217;m going to overstate my case:  all religions and/or supernatural realms were invented by pattern-seeking primates. No evidence exists for said religions and/or supernatural realms.  When scientifically investigated, either directly (e.g., efficacy of prayer research) or indirectly (e.g. paleontological research), said religious dogma and/or supernatural realms have always (to my knowledge) been disproven or retreated.  Said religions and/or supernatural realsm explain nothing about the natural world, the only one we DO know exists.  Sire, I have no need of that hypothesis.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Cross</title>
		<link>http://quichemoraine.com/2010/01/atheism-agnosticism-and-teenage-rebellion/#comment-13140</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quichemoraine.com/?p=2226#comment-13140</guid>
		<description>In my experience, people who insist on calling themselves agnostic are:

1) Sticklers for the philosophical, rather than general, definitions.

2) People who are poorly informed about the meaning of the terms.

3) People who want to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my experience, people who insist on calling themselves agnostic are:</p>
<p>1) Sticklers for the philosophical, rather than general, definitions.</p>
<p>2) People who are poorly informed about the meaning of the terms.</p>
<p>3) People who want to believe.</p>
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